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What if Uncas and Alice have lived?

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T O P I C R E V I E W
Lurking Huron3088	Posted - July 14 2004 : 12:00:23 PM Hey guys.... ever wondered what would have happened if the tragic pair had lived?? Would Alice have stayed or returned to London? And for what reasons?? Just a thought... : ) In my opinion, she would have stayed....partially because of Uncas..and oh well...we all know her sister is going to stay...so I guess she'll stay because of that too... What do you think??
25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Irishgirl	Posted - February 14 2006 : 2:36:33 PM Was she really only supposed to be about 16. I thought about 19 or 20. Anyways, had they both lived she would have owed Uncas big time for saving her and I personally think she should have taken him off into the woods to "thank him" in a fun way. That's what I would do. Seriously though who knows where their relationship or lack thereof would have lead. She was so young and he older and more experienced. I could not see her living without luxuries of those days. Perhaps she would have lived with Cora and Hawkeye and seen Uncas and dated him or whatever it was called in them days. Although as someone pointed out, white women and indians dating back in those days was frowned upon so who knows. She would have stayed with her big sis though.
kdragonrose	Posted - September 06 2005 : 10:22:20 PM quote: Originally posted by Jacy hope you feel welcomed Mohicana everyone on this site is v nice! I like to think they would have stayed together, Alice wouldn't have had anything to go back to England for really assuming Cora stays with Hawkeye - which you can't really doubt that she did. Thing is I think she'd struggle with the rough and harsh life a lot more than Cora. She would need a strong man like Uncas to help her through everything, he would have been the guy to show her how to do everything so losing him was like losing everything - her last glimmer of hope snuffed out. Was she brave to jump? I think so! What I would like to know is do you really think Uncas should have run off like that? If he had waited then nasty old Magua and his Huron pals would have only been a little further on and he would have had his dad and his half brother to back his heroics up. The thing with Native American Indians - so I am lead to believe is that they tended to run away in battle because it was better to run away and 'fight again another day' so that in itself makes Uncas's actions out of character and more rash - making his feelings very clear for the fragile little girl that is Alice. I also think that Uncas had a soft spot for John Cameron's wife - or at least was very fond of her - perhaps Alice is a younger version of her?? Jacy x I speculated on that very question (about Uncas running off like that) It's in a separate topic if you want to read what others thought. I agree that he was kind of a dummy for doing that. I mean, yeah he kind of HAS to die, but I think it would more Uncas-like for him to die while fighting WITH the others to try to save Alice. It also seemed kind of cold for everyone to go bonkers trying to save Cora when it was only Uncas who gave a darn about saving Alice. And can I just say how THRILLED I am to find someone else seeing something going on between Uncas and Alexandra Cameron! I always thought she was looking at him funny and that John Cameron thought something else was going on too. Here I thought I was just nuts.
Light of the Moon	Posted - July 18 2005 : 10:51:10 AM I have to agree with SilentThunder. However I think I would be eternally jealous!
micha74b	Posted - July 15 2005 : 02:01:26 AM I think that Alice was so horrofied from all the events that she could not develope a deep love for Uncas during this time. She trusted Uncas because he helped. There was no time for her in the movie to "feel" for Uncas. But the scene at the cliff, when Uncas was about to die: It seemed to me that she knew that her last reason to live was about to be taken from her. Maybe she felt something more for him. Sad that the movie did not show it. But if it would have, I think it would have been worse for me to take the ending. I think she would have stayed, and without all the the bad things happening they had a chance to find to each other. Great Acting!
silentthunder	Posted - January 30 2005 : 03:34:51 AM I strongly believe Alice would have stayed. She seemed to be very close to Cora. Obviously, Cora was staying with Hawkeye and making a life with him. Besides, her father was dead and she didn't have anyone to return to in London. Eventually, she would have fallen in love with Uncas and married him. Each time I watch the movie, I yell at the TV when Uncas touches his father in the shoulder and gives him "the look" and leaves alone. No Uncas No!! Why didn't Uncas wait for Hawkeye and Chingachgook to rescue Alice....
Light of the Moon	Posted - January 15 2005 : 2:14:23 PM I would think that she would stay. But what I don't get is why she didn't stop Uncas from dying. I would have ousted a brave, stole a gun, and shot Magua in the back!
richfed	Posted - January 15 2005 : 07:57:22 AM This thread was a prime example of a thread - off-topic - that needed to be split. So, for the first time, I tried out that new function installed to these forums recently ... worked like a charm. For those looking for the "off-topic" discussion, it may be found here: Indian Blood.
Hawkeyeluva	Posted - January 14 2005 : 6:30:50 PM i have to say....Alice fell for one reason,love. If you have to choose spending your life with a man who killed almost every thing you love or to be with your lover forever....well, every one knows the answer, i'll jump off too!
Lurking Huron1946	Posted - January 09 2005 : 06:51:48 AM I don't think Alice feared Mugwa close to the time she let go....I also think Magwa had some kind of ephiany up there on the cliff top.My interpretation was that he had changed his mind and was gesturing for her to come down from where she was standing. I believe he would then let her go because something had changed in him. Alice may be all the things you have mentioned; innocent, weak, young but she was also a Neptunian person and therfore had the power to invoke a powerful response in others. Magwa was no exception...God they must have had some kind of powerful connection. She and Cora were all Magwa had thought about for a long time. Granted his thoughts were to kill them but havn't you all experienced something obsessive that you anticipate over and over that turns out completely differently in reality? It was an intense time for him....I think he was having an ah huh moment. So was Alice and that is why she jumped...
Lurking Huron1946	Posted - January 09 2005 : 06:32:17 AM quote: Originally posted by Okwaho Between this thread and the one asking the question of why Alice jumped there seems to be the idea that Alice feared Magua more than dying as she did.Three writers seemed to believe that had she survived with Uncas dead and no one else to protect her being taken by Magua would be tantamount to the classic Victorian picture of "a fate worse than death" as follows: chasis 22,a 2003 post, said that she would have been raped or killed. rydergrl,a 2003 post,said that she would be abused by the women and as a slave would be passed from man to man. Wildernesswoman, a Jan.6,2004 post,felt that she would have a life as a captive slave to the likes of Magua. WELL Let me tell you what would likely have happened as well as what would NOT have happened to her to her. First,she would not have been raped or passed from man to man.We can find no documented instances of white women being raped by woodland Indians.There are a number of accounts of white women captivities and Mary Rowlandson,captured 1676 by Narragansetts was held for 11 weeks during which time she performed numerous knitting and related tasks for her"master and mistress" and others and was paid for them in various ways. She said in her story that "Not one of them ever offered me the least abuse of chastity in word or deed"Many white women refused to return to their white lives.So what are the options for her with Magua? She would be taken back to the village where it would be decided as to her fate.This wasn't Magua's sole decision but rather one made by the village including all the Clanmothers or as we call them the Grandmothers.She could be adopted into the tribe to replace a lost tribal member or she could be traded to another tribe or to the English or French and if the latter she would be given back in a political trade.She would not become a forced concubine or wife as some people think.She could also be ransomed back from her people as a commodity with value. Now, she had a legitimate fear for her life.If she couldn't keep up on the way back to the village she might be tomahawked and killed as a burden.However,given Magua's thirst for revenge, death by torture or burning was a distinct possibility and if you remember this had been about to happen to her sister,I believe, although it would be a tribal decision as outlined above. Captives, especially great warriors, were often tortured but women were not exempt.In the Nicholas drawings Ca.1700 done by a defrocked{?}priest in the Great Lakes country ,is shown a picture of "a female prisoner of war whom I burn" and I remember an account of a French woman who was burned by either the Hurons or the Iroquois.It is questionable whether she would have been burned if someone, usually a woman, wanted a potential adoptee to replace a lost family member and gave sufficient gifts to Magua to secure her. If she were adopted she would have been considered as much a member of the tribe and appropriate clan as if she had been born Indian.The captivity stories are fascinating and there were white women who preferred living as Indian to returning to their previous lives such as Mary Jemison who lived out her life as a Seneca.There are three reasons for this refusal to return. First they were not the property of their husbands Second they were not expected to bring forth children with the same frequency as corn,The average size of Indian families was 4-5 Third Women in the Native culture owned the longhouses,fields,and the crops,and had real political power.Remember woodland Indians are matrilineal rather than patrilineal ie, we descend through the mother rather than the father. Compare this with the lives of 17th and 18th century White culture where,"The husband and wife are one and the husband is the ONE" Alice,without Uncas as at least a protector,probably w
Wilderness Woman	Posted - January 08 2005 : 4:04:33 PM I love the story of Mary Jemison, the White Woman of the Genessee. What an amazing life and story. This past September, some friends and I dressed in our garb and went as spectators to the re-enactment and commemoration of the 225th anniversary of the Boyd-Parker Ambush (part of the Sullivan Expedition). One of the sites where this was held was at Cuylerville, where the Seneca village called Little Beard's Town was located. This was where Mary lived after her first husband died, until the Sullivan Expedition came through. It was very moving to be there. Anyone else interested can Google "Mary Jemison" and go to the Letchworth State Park website to read about her.
Okwaho	Posted - January 08 2005 : 1:35:00 PM Good post,Wilderness Woman and of course you're correct although I'm not so sure captive white women were widely abused slaves in the way whites of today view abusive slavery.I do think,however,that women from Alice's world would not be content as an Indian woman.Others such as Mary Jemison were content to live out their lives as as Indian women.Taken at 15, she retained a dualism of cultures after adoption by 2 Seneca women who considered her as a sister and thwarted efforts by the English to take her back in 1763 after the F&I War ended. She married twice and after her first husband died 4 years later she remarried and that marriage lasted some 50 years.She owned property and had 8 children 3 of whom were alive when she wrote her narrative about 1820,39 grandchildren,and 14 great grandchildren.She lived on the Genesee River and was called by Whites,"The White Woman". She died in 1833 and her autobiographical narrative is fascinating reading. Not many women chose to live as Indians and I'm sure most were taken at a fairly early age. I also am sure that women from the ultra strict Puritan culture or a bad marriage were more likely to stay.These captivity stories have always fascinated me and I think I need to read more about these women.I have several books with accounts of captives both men and women and they do have some very interesting stories.I srongly recommend "The Unredeemed Captive" by John Demos about Eunice Williams and James Everett Seaver,"A Narrative In The Life of Mrs.Mary Jemison".Canandaigua,N.Y.:J.D.Bemis,1824 Tom Patton
Wilderness Woman	Posted - January 08 2005 : 10:49:56 AM quote: Originally posted by lonewolf Good woman! She no longer want redcoat soldier. Of course she wouldn't! Why on earth would she want to have a life of comparable luxury with possibly a maid and a cook, elegant clothing, parties to attend, teas to preside over. How much more fun it would have been for Alice to sit on the ground chewing deer hides! The life you describe, Lonewolf, while very noble (do not accuse me of being anti-Indian, for I am not!), is simply not for every woman in the world! And I definitely do not think it would have been the life of choice for the movie character Alice. Yes, there were a number of white women captives who elected to stay in their new Indian world, but there were also a number who elected to return to their original families in the white world. Please do not presume that every white woman would have had a better life with an Indian tribe, than she would with her white family. If I had been lovingly adopted into a tribe as a child and married to a fine warrior, I would probably have stayed. If I had been forced to be a white slave (not talking sex and rape here), doing hard labor and sleeping outside like a dog... I would have found every opportunity to leave. And do not tell me that did not happen! You know very well it did.
Okwaho	Posted - January 08 2005 : 08:56:58 AM Gee whiz, I wish I could talk "Injun"
lonewolf	Posted - January 07 2005 : 9:53:59 PM It not great to be Indian ally of French snail eaters. Use French to kill Yengese. Then kill French. They just more shawanucks!
lonewolf	Posted - January 07 2005 : 9:49:21 PM Uncas take white woman Alice for wife. Heap many children. White woman chew many deer hides. Gather much firewood. Cook much food. Clean longhouse. Make Uncas good warshirt. Good woman! She no longer want redcoat soldier.
Okwaho	Posted - January 07 2005 : 6:12:53 PM Go to Google and punch in jenney wiley and you will find a bunch of sites maybe more than one page.I wasn't familiar with her but she seems well known in Kentucky.There are a lot of these captivity sagas but unless they have appeared in the captivity bios or memoirs or someone like you tells me I won't know about them. Good luck Tom Patton
misschanelno5	Posted - January 07 2005 : 5:18:45 PM Okwaho -- Do you know the story of Jenny Wiley? She lived in Indian captivity and escaped to be reunited with her husband; when you mentioned captivity stories I thought of hers, since a state park fairly near my home (in Prestonsburg, Kentucky) is dedicated to her. It is difficult to get a handle on the exact details, such as tribe(s) involved, since they tend to vary slightly from story to story. Here are two links: http://www.jeanhounshellpeppers.com/Jenny_Wiley_Story.htm http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jwiley/aboutjenny.htm I apologize if this is old news!
Okwaho	Posted - January 07 2005 : 3:03:25 PM Wilderness Woman mon ami, I don't disagree with what you say per se.I realize that to a naive confused young girl burdened wih all matter of fear even bordering on sheer terror,that Magua represented all that was terrifying and threatening to her.I wanted to merely point out that such fear was indeed real insofar as physical danger was concerned, but that the Victorian fear of a "fate worse than death" was groundless. Actually she probably would have had a pretty good chance of not being tortured or burned since that was really quite rare where women and especially white women were involved. alikws mon ami, I'm quite familiar with Eunice Williams and her husband Arosen and it's a really interesting story albeit a rather sad and poignant one.John Demos has a good book out,"The Unredeemed Captive".Eunice age 7 was captured with her entire family in the 1704 Deerfield Raid which BTW we reenacted last February.By the age of 9 she spoke no English and married Arosen at about 16.One or two of the family died and all the rest eventually got back but the Mohawks would never let her go.She and Arosen made several visits back to Mass. starting in 1739 I'm not familiar with Esther Wheelwright of Wells,Me.I've long been interested in the captivity stories so I'll have to check her out. Megwetch Tom Patton
alikws	Posted - January 07 2005 : 1:56:00 PM at the start of the movie, uncas,hawkeye,chingachgook were headed to cain-tuk-ee... acording to the means interview, after offering tobacco &c , they continued on to cain-tuck-ee.. if uncas survived, she would have followed him and her sister, if not, she may still have followed her sister... from the 1650's into the early 1700's redemption stories of caprives were common, often used in churches as an example of a test... she would have heard them... eunice williams (deerfield,ma) and esther wheelwright (wells me} are two who have stories out...
Wilderness Woman	Posted - January 07 2005 : 1:45:41 PM quote: Originally posted by Okwaho Let me tell you what would likely have happened as well as what would NOT have happened to her. Friend Okwaho, Thanks for those very valid points, much of which I knew. But I was not saying that any of those horrible things would have happened to her. If I may repeat what I stated in #5: "to escape what she saw for her future." My point is that poor little Alice, in her inexperience in this vast expanse of primeval wilderness, had no clue as to what was going to happen to her. Having seen what she had seen, she could only imagine the worst possible scenario for her future. Being the young and weak person that she was, and one who had pretty much lost her senses by then, she took what was to her the easy way out: death.
Gadget Girl	Posted - January 07 2005 : 1:37:26 PM Thanks for taking the time to share that, Tom! Having been to multiple gatherings and hiked those cliffs other multiple times, I have always thought she was just pure whooped as it is mighty hot in the summer on those cliffs (remember her looking up at the sky and sheilding her eyes??). Besides she didn't even have a Misty Mate OR Glammy Chamois to aid her trek. AND THAT DRESS... not cliff hiking gear AT ALL. The girl simply found herself gadget-less and decided to end it! GG
Okwaho	Posted - January 07 2005 : 1:08:29 PM Between this thread and the one asking the question of why Alice jumped there seems to be the idea that Alice feared Magua more than dying as she did.Three writers seemed to believe that had she survived with Uncas dead and no one else to protect her being taken by Magua would be tantamount to the classic Victorian picture of "a fate worse than death" as follows: chasis 22,a 2003 post, said that she would have been raped or killed. rydergrl,a 2003 post,said that she would be abused by the women and as a slave would be passed from man to man. Wildernesswoman, a Jan.6,2004 post,felt that she would have a life as a captive slave to the likes of Magua. WELL Let me tell you what would likely have happened as well as what would NOT have happened to her to her. First,she would not have been raped or passed from man to man.We can find no documented instances of white women being raped by woodland Indians.There are a number of accounts of white women captivities and Mary Rowlandson,captured 1676 by Narragansetts was held for 11 weeks during which time she performed numerous knitting and related tasks for her"master and mistress" and others and was paid for them in various ways. She said in her story that "Not one of them ever offered me the least abuse of chastity in word or deed"Many white women refused to return to their white lives.So what are the options for her with Magua? She would be taken back to the village where it would be decided as to her fate.This wasn't Magua's sole decision but rather one made by the village including all the Clanmothers or as we call them the Grandmothers.She could be adopted into the tribe to replace a lost tribal member or she could be traded to another tribe or to the English or French and if the latter she would be given back in a political trade.She would not become a forced concubine or wife as some people think.She could also be ransomed back from her people as a commodity with value. Now, she had a legitimate fear for her life.If she couldn't keep up on the way back to the village she might be tomahawked and killed as a burden.However,given Magua's thirst for revenge, death by torture or burning was a distinct possibility and if you remember this had been about to happen to her sister,I believe, although it would be a tribal decision as outlined above. Captives, especially great warriors, were often tortured but women were not exempt.In the Nicholas drawings Ca.1700 done by a defrocked{?}priest in the Great Lakes country ,is shown a picture of "a female prisoner of war whom I burn" and I remember an account of a French woman who was burned by either the Hurons or the Iroquois.It is questionable whether she would have been burned if someone, usually a woman, wanted a potential adoptee to replace a lost family member and gave sufficient gifts to Magua to secure her. If she were adopted she would have been considered as much a member of the tribe and appropriate clan as if she had been born Indian.The captivity stories are fascinating and there were white women who preferred living as Indian to returning to their previous lives such as Mary Jemison who lived out her life as a Seneca.There are three reasons for this refusal to return. First they were not the property of their husbands Second they were not expected to bring forth children with the same frequency as corn,The average size of Indian families was 4-5 Third Women in the Native culture owned the longhouses,fields,and the crops,and had real political power.Remember woodland Indians are matrilineal rather than patrilineal ie, we descend through the mother rather than the father. Compare this with the lives of 17th and 18th century White culture where,"The husband and wife are one and the husband is the ONE" Alice,without Uncas as at least a protector,probably was totally confused and perhaps knowing or fearing her possible fate simply took the easy way out.Who knows? Tom Patton
Wilderness Woman	Posted - January 06 2005 : 4:51:29 PM quote: Originally posted by robynk Alot of you seemed to have missed how "out of it" Alice was by the end of the movie. Some of us have not missed that at all! Some of us are just getting rather tired of repeating it, as this topic has been much discussed. Here, once again, is what I have offered as my opinion: 1. Uncas was in love with Alice. 2. Alice did not return that love. 3. Alice was a very terrified young "school-girl." 4. Alice was so completely overwhelmed by the events that transpired that she went 'round the bend, so to speak. 5. Alice did not jump from the cliff to join her so-called-by-some "lover," but simply to escape what she saw for her future: a life as a captive slave at the mercy of the likes of Magua. There. I've said it again!
Dark Woods	Posted - January 06 2005 : 3:52:06 PM Alice would have stayed, in my opinion. I don't think that whether or not she was in love with Uncas is critical. I think that she would stay because there is nothing in London for her. Then in time, I think that she could have fallen in love with Uncas, even if she had not been in love with him before.

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