| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| chasis_22 |
Posted - May 04 2003 : 06:03:22 AM
After talking to my sister about the Last of the Mohicans we got hung up on one part. We couldn't agree on why it was exactly that Alice jumped. What is your opinion? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| ChimneyRockPark |
Posted - March 09 2012 : 10:57:18 AM
Check out the new post on "20th Anniversary of LOTM at Chimney Rock Park" in the LOTM category... |
| Allye |
Posted - March 08 2012 : 09:15:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LadyofTheLake
Of course anyone is free to have their own opinion, but I'm truly convinced that is not by pure chance if the greater part of people who saw the movie was struck by Uncas&Alice love story.
I wonder how much of the percentage of people who see love on Alice's part are women who are projecting?  Eric Schweig's beauty and strong portrayal of Uncas, and the longing for Alice that was obvious on Uncas's part surely would've knocked my socks (and my skirts!) off, but I just didn't see evidence of Alice's love. Caring and sorrow, yes, as she watched him die, but I didn't see romantic love expressed on her part.
I'm as big of a Janeite as I am a LOTM fan which probably explains in part how I view Alice. Jane Austen wrote about British upper middle class society set in the early 1800's...about 50 years or so after the French & Indian War in the Regency period which was a little more daring socially than the years preceding or following it. Based on the horribly restrictive rules for courting and marrying in one's class (for men as well as women) even in the Regency period, the thought of romantic involvement with a "savage" would've been abhorrent to a well brought up British young lady.
Back to the OP...why Alice jumped. I did vote "invalid schoolgirl", but I think it was more than that and her fear. I also saw it as an incredibly strong act of an otherwise fearful woman to take control over her life by choosing death in the face of horrific circumstances. I would hardly ever call suicide an admirable choice, but do think in some rare, rare cases there are things worth than death and Alice was in such a situation. |
| LadyofTheLake |
Posted - March 03 2012 : 3:58:43 PM
I think Alice has NO fear of Magua, as is said in the script, so she couldn't jump for this reason...
And why she shouldn't have realized that help was about to come? It was obvious help was about to come... so she could have waited to be rescued, but she chose to jump for one reason: her love for Uncas.
The very first time I saw the movie I found this obvious.
Of course anyone is free to have their own opinion, but I'm truly convinced that is not by pure chance if the greater part of people who saw the movie was struck by Uncas&Alice love story. |
| Monadnock Guide |
Posted - March 03 2012 : 3:18:08 PM
In todays movies - scalping I'm sure is only done by "the bad guys", Ching couldn't be seen carving up someone's scalp. |
| IWLFNDU |
Posted - March 03 2012 : 2:27:44 PM
Good question, Fitz. Maybe he did, but we never see it? Or maybe Mann didn't want to portray Chingachgook in that way. If memory serves, most of the scalping that we see in the movie was done by the Huron.
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| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - March 03 2012 : 10:18:19 AM
quote:
Originally posted by IWLFNDU
but then Chingackgook and Hawkeye come in and just takes names...amongst other things. 
Which always made me wonder why Ching didn't take Magua's scalp. Would certainly have been the thing to do, it seems. |
| IWLFNDU |
Posted - March 03 2012 : 09:31:39 AM
I have to agree with Allye, too, but I also have to agree with others who mentioned she was afraid of Magua. If you see her expression as she moves out to the ledge, she looks terrified when Magua turns towards her after brutally killing Uncas. But then this completely serene expression comes across her face because she knows what she was going to do--how she was going to handle the situation. She was in control. She had the power. It was better to end it there under her terms than to live the life of only who-knows-what. She didn't realize help was literally around the corner. I just remember when I watched the movie the first time, I completely thought Uncas was going to save the day, and then he gets killed--in a most horrid way! And then Alice jumps! I couldn't believe it. I was not expecting that, but then Chingackgook and Hawkeye come in and just takes names...amongst other things.
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| LadyofTheLake |
Posted - March 03 2012 : 07:10:10 AM
That's why there are dozen and dozen of fanfictions about Uncas&Alice love story, and facebook pages and youtube videos and fanlistings... because we all see something that doesn't exist of course! 
Not to mention that the same authors of THIS site dedicated a page of mohicanpress to this couple... |
| Dark Woods |
Posted - February 28 2012 : 10:11:36 PM
It is good to see an old thread resurrected! |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - February 28 2012 : 6:09:50 PM
I can't believe this old thread has been resurrected. After 20 years, this debate still rages.
Allye..... thank you!!!! You have restated what I have been saying over and over again for years!
 |
| Allye |
Posted - February 28 2012 : 11:53:37 AM
Newbie here after 20 years. :)
I watched LOTM three times over the weekend and voted "invalid schoolgirl." I didn't get the impression that Alice was aware of Uncas as more than one of her protectors. His interest was evident, but I don't think she was capable of romantic thought; she seemed to have difficulty just putting one foot in front of the other a lot of the time. I think it did grieve her deeply to watch him die, but I think it was more of a combination of "in the trenches" bonding and a loss of his care and protection for her that I don't think she truly grasped until that fight scene. I think her suicide was due to both the loss of Uncas as her protector, and reaching the complete end of her rope due to all she had faced since the initial ambush. Including in "all she had faced" was hearing the death sentence for Cora and Magua's having led her away before Sachem accepted Duncan's plea to take Cora's place.
I'm glad that Michael Mann left out her love scene with Uncas because I think it would've been incongruent with her portrayed state of mind throughout the film. I actually think omitting a display of caring on her part (until witnessing him die) made him a more romantic figure because his heroic actions were magnified due to a most likely hopeless, unrequited love--that gets my heart everytime! |
| lane batot |
Posted - February 28 2012 : 08:41:01 AM
Ain't none of you fellers got this right! You jist ain't thinkin' like them Hollywood folks think. Truth is(first time ever revealed on this blog by by the Greatest-Of-All-Invisible-Film-Coureur-de-Bois), Alice saw a big, deep pool of water at the bottom of the cliff--Uncas had landed in it, and despite being severely(but not mortally) wounded, was swimming to the shore--so Alice then takes the plunge herself! Hence the sequel(if the original does well enough at the box office) "The Return Of The Next To The Last Of The Mohicans"!!! Hey, somebody could STILL do this, guys! It's not to late! |
| LadyofTheLake |
Posted - February 27 2012 : 05:27:32 AM
I voted for "she loved Uncas", and connected to this there's also your second choice. I don't agree she jumped for fear of Magua, beacuse she has clearly no fear when she looks at him (as the script says too).
And why some people have to say Alice is weak or mad, or an invalid school girl? In the scene in the Huron village the weak one seems Cora to me, not Alice who stands fiercely and throws even some looks of hate to Magua... in other situation, when she sees people slaughtered or so, she reacts just as every young girl would do.
In the waterfall scene she DOESN'T want to jump in the falls when Uncas stops her. He stops her in fear she could be spotted by the Hurons, as it is said in the script. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - June 04 2009 : 1:59:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by James N.
Fitz, I guess "smooth rifle" is just another of those oxymorons that slip into language in the course of time.
When I first saw it I thought it was something that modern people made up, but then found it in the 18th century context. The gun had sights, a cheek piece, patch box, rifle-style trigger guard, and a swamped barrel which could either be octagon or octagon-to-round. The latter style was almost always smooth bored despite what modern gun builders produce. Also, if you can make it to the next Gathering, I would like for you to see just how well balanced and great handling a 44" L. C. Rice swamped barrel can be. Not heavy at all, and not unbalanced like a straight barrel such as a Green Mt. The gunsmiths of 250 years ago really knew what they were doing! |
| MoneminsCastle |
Posted - June 04 2009 : 11:24:37 AM
And to be even more Cooper-centric and bash John Balderston's screenplay even more, it was Cora and not Alice that appealed to Uncas. Uncas, a strong young chief, was attracked to the spirit of Cora, while Alice, frail and pale, would not have appealed to the dignified Uncas.
Read for yourself: From Chapter VI
The repast, which was greatly aided by the addition of a few delicacies that Heyward had the precaution to bring with him when they left their horses, was exceedingly refreshing to the wearied party. Uncas acted as attendant to the females, performing all the little offices within his power, with a mixture of dignity and anxious grace that served to amuse Heyward, who well knew that it was an utter innovation on the Indian customs, which forbid their warriors to descend to any menial employment, especially in favor of their women.
As the rites of hospitality were, however, considered sacred among them, this little departure from the dignity of manhood excited no audible comment. Had there been one there sufficiently disengaged to become a close observer, he might have fancied that the services of the young chief were not entirely impartial. That, while he tendered to Alice the gourd of sweet water, and the venison in a trencher, neatly carved from the knot of the pepperidge, with sufficient courtesy, in performing the same offices to her sister his dark eye lingered on her rich speaking countenance. Once or twice he was compelled to speak, to command the attention of those he served. In such cases, he made use of English, broken and imperfect, but sufficiently intelligible, and which he rendered so mild and musical by his deep, guttural voice that it never failed to cause both ladies to look up in admiration and astonishment. In the course of these civilities a few sentences were exchanged that served to establish the appearance of an amicable intercourse between the parties. |
| MoneminsCastle |
Posted - June 04 2009 : 10:48:15 AM
I like what a person wrote in a thread that pertained to the book, titled, "What is the best lesson you can learn from the story of Magua and Cora..."
"Litelle209" wrote:
I suggest that when looking at the "relationship" between Cora and the Huron chief Magua we should consider what was happening in America at the time the text was written in terms of race relations. After all, the narrative contains an undercurrent of failed interracial relationships ( consider Cora's mother, for instance, who is non-white). Antebellum America was in a fierce grip of miscegenation phobia, or a fear of interracial sexual relations. This anxiety actually continued to exist in codified form in Virginia, for example, until the case of Loving vs. Virgina reached the Supreme Court in the 1960's.
When we look at Coopers text then we should ask how he negotiates the fate of that relationship. It is certainly not a love story, since Cora is violently abducted to his "wigwam". Magua is portrayed as rather animalistic, driven by pure sexual lust and primal masculinity. Cora, in contrast to her virginal, blond sister Alice, is sassy and quite often questions Major Heyward. Since the text itself traces the construction of the American empire ( it takes place during the French-Indian War), an apt reading should consider what place the text accords Cora and Magua in the future republic. Along with countless Indians, they die. It seems that the text suggests that America has no place for Native Americans and interracial people like Cora. They are a threatening presence.
Historically speaking this is congruent with what was happening in the US at the time, since the the question of what to do with Native Americans became a prominent issue that lead to the Trail of Tears where thousands of Native Americans perished under the guise of resettlement in the west.
http://www.enotes.com/last-mohicans/q-and-a/what-best-lesson-you-can-learn-from-story-magua-3544
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| James N. |
Posted - June 04 2009 : 10:37:37 AM
My apologies to both Monemins and Fitz!
I don't remember seeing Monemins' name in the postings before, so assumed it was someone still "Lost in the Wilderness" - I should've looked more carefully.
Fitz, I guess "smooth rifle" is just another of those oxymorons that slip into language in the course of time. ( Sort of like the classic, "Military Justice"! ) Of course many of these terms get scrambled, particularly bouncing back and forth between English and French; like what I wrote in my account of the wardrobe master's confusion over the term "sappers" in the script.
To return to the original topic of this thread, the most recent posting speculating on Alice's motovation also ignores Cooper's intent of avoiding the then-taboo issue of white/Indian "race-mixing" by having her ( well, her CHARACTER; "Cora" in the book ) be a Mulatto; as Monemins Castle has already ably pointed out in an earlier posting. |
| MoneminsCastle |
Posted - June 04 2009 : 08:53:24 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Dockpost
It looked pretty clear to me Uncas was in love with Alice. He did not seem to care that anyone else knew it and was neither afraid nor ashamed of his love for her. The kind of love that compelled him to go after her alone, abandoning all reason and teaching, rather than resucing her with the help of his father and brother.
Alice however was different. I believe Alice loved Uncas as well, but she being young and white, the relationship was not one she was willing to let other, including Uncas see. She was conflicted within for not being brave enough to proclaim her love for him.
After Magua dispatched Uncas, all hope for Alice of ever sharing a live with Uncas was gone, as was the opportunity to tell Uncas she was in love with him. Her suicide jump was not out of fear of Magua, nor was it out of relinquishing hope of being rescued. The turning of her head was a conscious denial of life without Uncas, not a dismissal of life with Magua. Alice jumped so the love she denied Uncas in life would be his eternally in death.
I'm sure that's what John Balderston who wrote the adaptation wanted you to believe. After all this thread is about what went on inside Balderston's head and nobody has mentioned his name yet. |
| Dockpost |
Posted - June 03 2009 : 8:12:55 PM
It looked pretty clear to me Uncas was in love with Alice. He did not seem to care that anyone else knew it and was neither afraid nor ashamed of his love for her. The kind of love that compelled him to go after her alone, abandoning all reason and teaching, rather than resucing her with the help of his father and brother.
Alice however was different. I believe Alice loved Uncas as well, but she being young and white, the relationship was not one she was willing to let other, including Uncas see. She was conflicted within for not being brave enough to proclaim her love for him.
After Magua dispatched Uncas, all hope for Alice of ever sharing a live with Uncas was gone, as was the opportunity to tell Uncas she was in love with him. Her suicide jump was not out of fear of Magua, nor was it out of relinquishing hope of being rescued. The turning of her head was a conscious denial of life without Uncas, not a dismissal of life with Magua. Alice jumped so the love she denied Uncas in life would be his eternally in death.
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| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - June 03 2009 : 6:00:49 PM
In the mid 18th century the term carbine, or carbine bore, referred to a gun made with smaller than the normal military caliber. They were usually in the mid or low ".60's" instead of .69 and larger. None were rifled except for about 1100 made in France in the 1730's, but never shipped to the Americas. The British used rifles, but did not refer to them as carbines. Rifles were produced in America were made in two ways, either with a rifled barrel, or with a smooth bored barrel, hence the term "smooth rifle", which refers to a gun with rifle architecture but with a smooth barrel. A count of the guns in Shumway's books will give a number of about 55-60% with rifling, and the rest smooth. So Hawkeye's gun could have been a smoothbore, but I am certain it was not meant to be so. There were plenty of rifles advertised in the newspapers of the time. |
| MoneminsCastle |
Posted - June 03 2009 : 1:37:22 PM
James. . .excellent catch. You caught my mistake. I misquoted as I was trying to recall from memory. That's not what Hawkeye said.
Here's the actual line:
Chapter XXIX, Page 413, Line 30
"That I did not answer to the call for La Longue Carabine was not owing either to shame or fear," he said; "for neither one nor the other is the gift of an honest man. But I do not admit the right of the Mingos to bestow a name on one whose friends have been mindful of his gifts, in this particular ; especially as their title is a lie, ' Killdeer' being a grooved barrel and no cara- byne. |
| James N. |
Posted - June 03 2009 : 11:20:46 AM
Fitz, you OF ALL PEOPLE should know that the FRENCH term "carabine" designates a smaller, lighter, and SOMETIMES smaller-bored shoulder arm; which has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether or not it is RIFLED. ( Obviously they can very well be rifled, as in the "immortal" rifled carbines of the Civil War such as the Spencer and Sharps. )
Monemins, welcome to the board!
"Hawkeye - Called Le Longue Carabine by the Huron even though his rifle, 'Killdeer' was a smooth bore and not a carbine."
Sorry; in spite of your considerable ( and correct! ) knowledge of Cooper's novel, a "rifle" CANNOT be a SMOOTHBORE! Why not? BECAUSE IT'S RIFLED! ( As a Civil War reenactor I have this problem trying to make our modern "gun-shy" population understand this difference ALL the time. ) And Kildeer is definitely a RIFLE; notice the "odd" way Hawkeye carries it when running, holding it as he does about mid-way along its length. That's because, despite its slim and graceful appearance, the damn thing's HEAVY and poorly-balanced due to the weight of a rifle's barrel. ( And of course I saw it in person many times, though I never held it. )
Military shoulder arms of this period, French or English, were large-bore ( .69 or .71 calliber respectively ) muskets which weighed approx. 9 - 10 lbs. ( without the bayonet! ) and were AT LEAST 59" long. Although they WERE used by some mounted troops ( cavalrie and dragons ) they were woefully bulky for light cavalry ( hussars, chasseurs ). A shorter, lighter model was adapted for them; one that could even be muzzle-loaded while on horseback: the CARABINE! ( As I'm writing this, I'm looking at 2 of them hanging on my wall: an undated Revolutionary hussar musketoon from around 1795; and an Imperial example for chasseurs a'cheval dated 1813. ) This term found itself applied to ANY arm having similar characteristics, particularly HUNTING arms like SHOTGUNS. ( Notice I didn't say "hunting rifles" because these weren't RIFLED, but smoothbored. )
Military MUSKETS; smaller versions of them, intended primarily for officers, called FUSILS ( or "fuzees" in English ); and hunting shotguns were ALL relatively short-ranged SMOOTHBORES: their barrels were nothing more than thin-walled metal "pipes". German gunsmiths utilizing specialized machinery cut narrow, twisted channels lengthwise INSIDE heavy thick-walled "pipes" ( gun barrels ) which were known as RIFLING. The barrels HAD to be thick and heavy for the crappy steel alloys of the period to withstand the added pressure of the powder charge in the rifling, much greater than in a smoothbored musket. But rifling extended the range of the weapon to double or even triple that of the smoothbore; VERY important to a hunter of game on a frontier where literally every shot HAD to count! Rifling was rare and VERY expensive; in Cooper's novels one wonders just how it was that the obviously indifferent and poverty-stricken Hawkeye, et al. could possibly have afforded them. The cost of one could EASILY wipe out any profit over an entire season of good hunting. |
| Fitzhugh Williams |
Posted - May 17 2009 : 9:10:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MoneminsCastle
Hawkeye - Called Le Longue Carabine by the Huron even though his rifle, "Killdeer" was a smooth bore and not a carbine.
Cooper was correct. A carbine is not a rifle. It is a smoothbore. |
| Obediah |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 5:44:27 PM
Getting back to the topic at hand: really, who cares why she jumped! I for one am just as glad we finally saw the last of her!
Let's face it: Alice and Uncas are just throw-away characters (yes, pun intended). |
| Wilderness Woman |
Posted - May 14 2009 : 08:45:46 AM
Are you Kidding, Obi???? With that glorious love story between Hawkeye and Cora??? How can you possibly say that? 
I think the correct ratio should be 50-50. That's, of course, if you are assuming that the ladies only care about the romantic part of the story. Speaking for myself... I thoroughly enjoy the so-called "manly" parts of the movie, as well. The skirmishing, the attacking, the shooting, the running, the paddling, the arguing, the..... aw heck. I just LOVE IT ALL!!!
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